Re: Deep Dish Sets

[Todd <tdh@vbref.org>]

ychun@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Young  Chun) writes:

> 
>      I hope I'm not the only one to admit this... but I think deep 
> dishing should be flat out banned from this sport.  First of all, it is 
> illegal since the ball has come to a rest in the setter's hands.  

This phrase "comes to rest" is what cracks me up about the AVP rule
book.  If you use this criterion to determine if a set is legal, then
you couldn't legally set a ball, by strict reading of the rule.  If
you take the ball in, and then push it back out, physics tells you
that the velocity of the ball must be 0 at some point during the
action.  If rest == 0 velocity, then you're in a bit of a pickle....

Whether the ball comes to rest is not the issue.  The ball will come
to rest (0 velocity) in any setting motion.  



>Also, since the ball must be taken near the chest and under the chin
> (if i'm not mistaken), this is illegal.  It's especially noticeable
> when setters deep dish back sets.  It's almost impossible to get
> back sets cleanly when deep dishing.

Not necessarily true.  There is a difference here between legality and
form.  USA Volleyball Rule 14.4 says this about the legality of ball
contacts:

  14.4 Characteristics of the hit
  
  14.4.1  The ball may touch any part of the body.
  
  14.4.2 The ball must be hit, not caught or thrown.  It can rebound in
  any direction.
  
  14.4.3 The ball may touch various parts of the body, provided that the
  contacts take place simultaneously.  EXCEPTIONS:
  
          14.4.3.1 During blocking, consecutive contacts may occur by
          one or more blockers provided the contacts occur during one 
          action.
  
          14.4.3.2 During the first hit of the team (not blocking), the
          ball may contact various parts of the body consecutively,
          provided that the contacts occur during one action.
  
                  14.4.3.2 Commentary The first hit of the team includes
                  reception: (a) of the serve; (b) of an attack hit
                  by the opponent [this may be a soft or hard
                  attack-hit]; (c) of a ball blocked by one's own 
                  team and (d) of a ball blocked by the opponents.
                  During the team's first hit successive contacts
                  with various parts of the player's body are permitted
                  in a single action of playing the ball.  These
                  include contacts involving "finger-action" on the ball 
                  and contact with the foot.  The ball, however, 
                  may not be caught and/or thrown.
  


Referees, as I've stated time and again, are urged to judge the
legality of the contact rather than the form.  Your argument indicates
that you would like good form to be mandated in the rules.  


>      Setters that deep dish usually have good hands.  I guess referees 
> see this and since they are "good setters with good hands" the refs are 
> reluctant to call carries on them.  Also since they do not want to 
> interrupt the flow and call every sets carries they do not call them.

Referees ask themselves with every contact, "was the ball caught,
thrown, carried, or lifted?  Was the contact brief?"  If the answer to
all of these is "no," then play continues.  A good setter who is
skilled in deep dishing can execute the long (spatial) contact in a
brief (temporal) instant.  If the contact is brief/quick enough to
satisfy these criteria, it is legal, regardless of how far the ball
travelled from the point it was taken into the hands.


>      Deep dishing give distinct advantage for setters.  By deep dishing, 
> they have more time to make decisions.  They can hold the ball for 
> longer period and set the ball.  This can create havoc for the middle 
> blocker on the opposite side.  


Indeed it can.  

> Setters usually get away with many balls that would otherwise me 
> called carry for other players, but they push too far.  Holding on to the 
> ball and throwing it should not be part of the game... although with 
> these new rules about first ball contact... that's another subject that I 
> have a problem with.


I agree--it is very easy for a deep dish set to be a lift, and with
recent changes in USA Volleyball rules, some really sloppy doubles are
now legal on the first team contact.  It's not pretty, it's not good
form, but it is legal.  

As for deep dish setting, at high levels of competition, this skill
_can_ be executed in a manner consistent with the rules, for better or
for worse.  


Best Regards,
--
                  Todd H.   tdh@vbref.org
USAV Regional Referee, Great Lakes Region, Palatine, IL
Todd's Volleyball Referee Page http://www.io.com/~tdh/vball/
"So you're a Ref and an engineer? Oh that explains it...."